 |
| www.KarissaLaurel.com |
I had considered a few other topics for this week's post, but then fellow ATB Contributor, Victor Catano, and I ended up seeing (separately--we live several states apart, alas) the latest installation of Batman in the DC franchise.
In our subsequent online chats, we both had quite a bit to say to each other about the movie, so we thought we'd delve a little further into it here on ATB.
I must warn you... The following discussion/interview contains LOTS of spoilers about The Batman, which boasts an embarrassment of riches when it comes to the cast: Pattinson, Kravitz, Tuturro, Wright, Serkis, Ferrel, and Skarsgard, just to name a few.
With stars like that, The Batman had every opportunity to be successful, despite the DCU's questionable track record. But did it actually succeed? That's what Victor and I are here to talk about.
If you want to avoid spoilers, please read no further. If you do, then don't blame us if you find out more than you wanted.
Karissa: Thanks for taking the time to talk Batman with me today, Victor. It seems like, from previous discussions, this storied character is one we both have OPINIONS about. So let's jump right into it: Break down your personal Batman history for us. How did you get to be a fan of the Caped Crusader?
Victor: Basically my mom. I was always a spider-fan, first and foremost. I was a chubby kid who liked to read, so of course I fell hard for Spidey, the bespectacled nerd who gained web-slinging powers. (Also I watched him every day on the Electric Company on PBS) But my mom got me into Batman. She always said “anyone can be Batman.” You just needed the will and discipline to train and focus. (She left out the part about the billions of dollars. Get to work on that Mom!)
That led me to a big, hardcover collection in our local library that collected a ton of golden age Batman comics. I must’ve read that a dozen times, reading the classic stories of Batman matching wits with the Riddler, Two-Face, and Catwoman. And the local kid’s show would play the classic Adam West episodes on Sunday morning TV.
When I was 14, Frank Miller wrote The Dark Knight Returns, and my young mind was blown. The colorful cast of Batman took on a decidedly darker hue, and Batman truly became a Darker knight. And I’ve been a fan ever since, with many opinions about the various live action movies.
Karissa: If I were a Batman fandom gatekeeper, then I would think it's fair to say you've earned your entry. I, however, can't claim to be much of an expert. I haven't read any of his comics, and I never watched the original show with Adam West. But I was in the theater when the Michael Keaton/Tim Burton Batman came out in 1989. That may have had to do with my affection for all things Tim Burton related at that time, more than my feelings for Batman, but I came away loving the movie and the character.
I think I've seen every Batman movie in the theater since then. I'm really glad this one came out after I had been vaccinated multiple times and when our local COVID numbers were on the decline. I can't imagine having waited to see it at home. This was really a big screen event, in my opinion.
Victor: True, you need a big movie screen to ensure you get enough light to actually SEE The Batman
Karissa: Is that a joke about how dark these movies always seem to be?
Victor: *sends a bullseye emoji in response* Darker in character and darker in cinematography.
Karissa: One of my favorite things about this movie was the cinematography. I felt a lot of the really beautiful still shots would have lost something on the smaller screen. Maybe one of my most favorite examples of this was after the car chase with Oz/The Penguin. After Oz's car flips over, and he's hanging upside down, he looks out his window to see Batman standing there, reflected in a pool of oil, cape billowing while flames explode in the background. I could have had that shot framed to hang on my wall.
As far as atmosphere, though, would you say this latest iteration is more or less dark than it's predecessors? How would you rank it among the other Batman movies in terms of "darkness" or "grittiness"?
Victor: It’s very dark and “gritty.” The Riddler has been reinvented from a prankster in a question mark covered suit to a zodiac-style serial killer, sending taunting notes to Batman. Director Matt Reeves is very much creating a “real world” Batman, that is, a Batman that could plausibly exist in our reality.
And I think he succeeds for the most part. This is a Year Two Batman story. He’s been around for a little while, the cops are mostly wary of him, and criminals are aware of him but not that scared of him. He’s still learning to fight effectively. I was a little surprised how many punches he took and how often he got shot.
Karissa: I hadn't been expecting this movie to be basically in medias res. I was actually really glad Reeves dispensed with the whole backstory thing. He started this movie with the assumption that the audience knew Batman's story, and I was really glad of that. It was already a three hour long movie, but at least those three hours were dedicated almost entirely to the main plot.
My son, who is a tremendous Batman fan and who is much more well versed in the lore and history of the character, also commented on how much he appreciated that Batman seemed more human. That punches and gunshots clearly hurt him. I was impressed, I guess that's the word, with the bat suit. He still had the cowl and cape--he couldn't be Batman without those icons, of course, no matter how implausible they'd be in the real world--but the rest of his attire was highly functional. Take away the mask and cape and he was basically wearing a stylized form of police or military tactical gear. He could have been a member of the SWAT team or something.
I also noted how, when you did see Pattinson with his shirt off, he wasn't a roided-out super-human. He was clearly fit, a guy who spent a lot of time fighting and whatnot, but he didn't look wedded to his weight machine. He had scars, too! Insinuating, again, that this Batman is far from invincible
Victor: Indeed. I remember fans being upset about Michael Keaton’s Batman wearing body armor back in the 80s, but honestly Batman without armor is going to last about 10 seconds against a gang member with an uzi. But seriously, Bats should learn how to duck 😂. Maybe dodging is Year 3.
Karissa: Along with that whole theme of "real guy" batman, now is as good of any time to talk about the sexiest thing in the whole movie. No, Victor, not Batman and Catwoman's kiss. I want to talk about the Batmobile. *insert .gif of Blanche misting herself with water to cool herself off*.
Victor: I see what gets your motor running. Personally my favorite Batmobile is the Burton one, long and sleek. I liked this one, though. Far superior to the tumbler tank from the Nolan movies. And I did like the gag in the film, where after revving the engine up, the Batmobile stalls out for a minute.
Karissa: I am partial to a muscle car. Always have been always will be. I got it from my Dad who fantasized about a '69 Camaro for years, though he never bought one. Now I'm married to a gear head who is a hobby mechanic. Though his interests tend to lean more towards old trucks and building off-road vehicles (OMG don't get me started on the Suzuki Samurai he's rebuilding right now) he totally lusts over a classic '70 Chevelle and my son is dying for a '67 Impala. So, when that Batmobile screamed like raptor then shot out of the mists, my knees went weak!
Victor: Yeah, the tumbler is probably the most practical of the Batmobiles, but it wasn’t at all cinematic or cool. And there has to be some kind of cool factor here. It’s Batman!
Karissa: Absolutely! And my son and I agree with you. We did not like the tumbler tank Batmobile much at all. It was too... militaristic? It didn't seem like the right thing for an urban application.
Victor: The Batcycle in Dark Knight was SO MUCH cooler.
Karissa: It was cool. Still very conceptual, but very cool. I like how it could switch directions without really losing momentum.
Victor: And that’s a thing for all the bat movies. I appreciate the desire to ground Batman in realism, but I also want some cool bat gadgets and fun cars.
Karissa: I liked the hints in this one that Bruce was a gear head. He clearly built the Batmobile himself.
Victor: I think that’s the riddle all the Batman movies struggle with. This is, at its heart, a character rooted in pulp fiction. A guy who dresses up like a bat and fights killer clowns. It’s a fundamentally ridiculous concept. So the question becomes how much weight do you give each half of that equation? How much darkness? How much grit? How many bat-puns?
Karissa: You know, even the latest iteration of James Bond struggled with that. Who is Bond without his puns and his absurd nemeses? However, I did find myself chuckling more with this Batman movie than I ever did with the Christopher Nolan ones. This one was dark, but there were attempts at humor, even if it was mostly dry and ironic.
Victor: I was just going to mention Bond! There’s a subset of Bond fans who want a realistic Jason Bourne spy thriller. Then there are those like me, who want cool cars and sexy spy ladies named Plenty O’Toole and sharks with frickin’ laser beams.
Karissa: I think I posted in the past that Bond is basically Batman without the cowl and cape and a lot of people agreed.
Before we get too distracted and fall down other rabbit holes, I want to talk about the detective/crime procedural foundations of this movie. And also about how interesting it was that in this one, Alfred was the one who taught Batman to fight. According to my son this is accurate based on the iteration of Alfred in the comics who has some background as a soldier and affiliation with MI5 and MI7. Clearly that's the case with this Alfred. This is a big difference from the Ra's Al Gul and League of Assassins history in the Nolan movies.
Victor: Yeah, Alfred has undergone a lot of origin retcons. I remember reading his first appearance when he was a chubby dude who basically showed up one day and found the door to the Batcave while dusting.
But I do like his background as British special forces. I do prefer the origin where Bruce travels the world to learn different fighting styles and illusions, but it makes sense that Alfred would channel an angry and scared young boy into a way where he could work through those emotions.
I will say I was not a fan of how Bruce treats Alfred here. He literally snaps “you’re not my DAD!” at him. The man raised you! Show some respect!
Karissa: Bruce was entirely too emo in that moment. My son didn't care for that reaction either. I have to admit there were a few times I expected Bruce to wander out in black nail paint and eyeliner (he was halfway there with the kohl he wore under the cowl) listening to Death Cab for Cutie or My Chemical Romance.
 |
| "They said, "All teenagers scare the livin' shit out of me" They could care less as long as someone'll bleed So darken your clothes, or strike a violent pose Maybe they'll leave you alone, but not me" |
Anyway...
You know I loathe, loathe, loathe CGI monsters, so you know I was super pleased that this story stuck to the police procedural/detective storyline and skipped the supernatural BS that, I think, was one of the biggest downfalls of the Justice League/Snyder iterations of Batman.
Victor: Agree with you on the CGI. There’s probably a lot more that we realize, but it was only noticeable in one scene where Batman lands after gliding away from the police station.
And going back futher, THANK YOU for not once again showing the murder of Tom and Martha. No slow mo pearls falling!
Karissa: I'm okay with CGI special effects like bombs or space ships or to make a crowd look bigger than it really is. I'm a bit less okay with it when it comes to trying to convince me an animated human is a real person *cough*StarWarsUniverse*cough*, and I actually have plans to write a post about that some day. But not today. Today, I'd like to make sure we don't leave without talking about the other star of this movie: Catwoman!
 |
| Zoe Kravitz as Catwoman in The Batman |
Karissa: I'm going to confess something. When I saw Batman Returns in 1992, I didn't like it very much. I realize now that I didn't understand what it was trying to do. I wasn't sure how I felt about Pfeiffer at the time. All these many years later, though, I've come to appreciate the movie a lot more and understand what a knockout performance Pfeiffer gave. Have you seen the "behind the scenes" stuff about how Pfeifer trained with her whip. And how good she got at it? Mad respect!
So, yeah, I'm still going to give Pfeiffer top ranking, but I did like Kravtis's Catwoman a lot, and she and RPatz had good chemistry. They were believable together.
Victor: Well I saw Batman Returns as a 19 year old teen, and I was extremely receptive to her performance.
Karissa: Heh, heh, heh, I bet you were. If you don't think Pfeiffer was sexy as hell in that role, you might be dead.
I liked the little details in Kravitz's costume. She wore a somewhat typical cat burglar balaclava, but the seams were arranged in such a way as to give her "ears" that was a cute nod to the character while also keeping it real. I also liked how she said "I can take care of myself". And for the most part she did. She contributed in meaningful ways to solving the mystery at the heart of the plot, too. It was a very male-centric movie, but she held her own.
Karissa: Before we wrap this up, I also wanted to talk to you about the ending regarding the sea walls, how the status quo was not maintained, and how the next movie will be working from virtually a post-apocalyptic setting. And I was going to get your thoughts on Riddler as a character.
Victor: I think the Riddler character was heavily drawn from the recent joker movie. The misfit who fights the established order and gains a devoted online following by attacking Gotham’s elite - that’s the plot of Joaquin Phoenix’s film. Once he took off his mask and revealed Paul Dano, it was so significantly less frightening.
 |
| Paul Dano as The Riddler |
Karissa: I haven't seen Joaquin's Joker and I probably never will. The concept doesn't appeal to me at all. I wasn't certain I liked Dano's performance after he took his mask off. It felt like a caricature of "crazy". Up to that point, Riddler was violent but he never came across as out of control, especially with himself. Unfortunately, Batman's villains will always probably have the problem of being compared to Heath Ledger's Joker. Dano, particularly at the end, was a bit too over the top for my tastes.
Victor: Ledger got the balance right, being insane but still showing you the cunning behind his plans
Karissa: Exactly.
Victor: And it will be interesting to see if Gotham stays razed for the next movie. That’s a well known story arc in the comics - No man’s land.
Karissa: Oh? See I didn't know about that.
Victor: But I suspect they’ll have the streets squeegeed off in time for the sequel. Although I would like to see Mad Max Batman prowling the wreckage.
Karissa: Not being familiar with the comics means I don't have any guesses about what comes next. I mentioned to you before that I found the apocalyptic nature of this ending so interesting because most Super Hero stories are about battling to maintain the status quo and this one absolutely isn't. This somewhat reminds me of the Thanos Snap. But it took Marvel 20 movies to get to the Snap, and you knew there was another movie left and the whole point of it would be to undo the Snap. But Batman doesn't have a time machine. He can't undo this damage. He has to deal with the aftermath. I hope there is some aftermath and that they didn't clean things up too much before the next movie, but who knows.
Victor: I would like them to take Batman in a new direction! That’d be great
Karissa: What do you think about the ending? Clearly that was Joker cackling in Arkham, wasn't it? Online, I saw someone grumbling that they were tired of Joker. What about you? Are you looking forward to it or do you hope they focus on another Batman nemesis. And if so, who?
Victor: Yeah, I think we’ve had enough Joker for a while. Between Ledger, Phoenix, and Leto we could have a break. And that’s not even counting the animated versions and the Gotham series.
I'd honestly like to see them do a deeper dive in to the Rogue's Gallery. A Batman movie will almost certainly do big business, so why not move past yet another Joker showdown? How about Clayface, the washed up actor who gets turned into a shape shifter? Or Scarface, the ruthless gangster, who is actually a ventriloquist dummy? Or the Mad Hatter? Or Poison Ivy? Bring her back to have a romantic triangle with Bats and Cat!
I think this is a promising start for a new cycle of Batman movies. Batman Begins was a good film that led to a great one in Dark Knight. I think The Batman is also a good start, but I'm looking forward to what can happen next.
Personally, as I get older, I appreciate the first two Burton movies more and more. It's funny, when I was a lad, those were the darkest Batman movies we could imagine! Now they seem a bit campy, and I like them more for that. I like the balance of the absurd and the realistic. And I wouldn't mind The Batman getting a little more fantastical.
Overall, where do you rank this in your Bat-Pantheon?
Karissa: Ever since watching it, I've been trying to figure out where it places compared to the other movies.
Victor: I think it's right in the middle for me.
Karissa: The long runtime is a major strike against it.
Victor: It's better than The Dark Knight Returns, and the two Schumacher disasters, but not quite at the level of Dark Knight, Batman or Batman Returns for me. I agree on the runtime. I had to sprint to the bathroom after Batman saw the Riddler in prison. Curse those free refills at AMC theatres!
Karissa: It worked fine for a first-time viewing but I'm wondering when I'll feel like devoting three-hours to a rewatch. I told my son I will probably watch it with my remote in hand to fast forward to the scenes I really want to see again, such as the car chase.
Victor: Ooh yeah, that was a great car chase. Because it actually happened on a crowded city highway! Living in NYC I always think about that. A car chase on the Brooklyn-Queens Expressway? It's quicker on foot.
Karissa: I also don't care for the Schumacher movies, though I loved and still love the soundtrack from Batman Forever. Maybe that was the only good thing that came out of the movie. And I don't think much of the Batman in the Snyderverse. I don't even really rank those. So, I'm with you on the original Keaton/Burton Batman still being the best. I loved The Dark Knight, and maybe Ledger's Joker has a lot to do with that. The other Nolan/Bale movies were good but not up to that caliber. This one is probably third or fourth in line at the moment. We'll see if I change my mind later, after some distance and after I watch it again.
Victor: Oh I totally forgot about SnyderVerse Bats. I liked Affleck, but did not like those movies at all.
Karissa: I wouldn't mind a Batman movie about what happens when Batman gets old and his knees are shot and his back hurts. Does he get a Bat Chiropractor? Bat PT?
Victor: Patterson keeps getting shot in the chest, you’ll get that real soon.
Karissa: We both agreed that we could keep talking Batman stuff forever, but I guess for the sake of this blog it has gone on long enough. Thanks for joining me today, Victor, and for basically helping me write an ATB post when it wasn't your turn. I owe you one.
 |
| Thanks for reading. See you again real soon! |
No comments:
Post a Comment